Wiktionary:Tea room – Wiktionary

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I wish to change the English Language Entry for silver taking out the Indo-European source word and adding the words:"The replacement of Indo-European *Hertom in Germanic has been thought to be linked to increasing metalurgical sophistication."To add "but has been considered phonologically and geographically improbable" to the discussion of an Akkadian source also inserting the Akkadian script.I also wish to cite references for this - any problem if I add this to the Etymology bit or should I put it under further reading?Is there any problem with me doing this?

No response so I've gone ahead and done it.

@Mocha2007 pointed out on the talk page that the "humorous misspelling of girl" definition would seem to be a separate etymology.

I'm not really sure how we should handle it: on the one hand, it's definitely derived from girl, but on the other, it's also definitely derived from grill. This is a pun, which takes its humor from simultaneously being (sort of) both of two different terms or senses.

Is this really a lexical form of either girl or grill, or is it merely the substitution of one lexically-unchanged word for another in order to make a joke?

I see that we have ladies and germs from "Good evening, ladies and germs", but we don't have a sense at germ for "(humorous) gentleman", and we don't have "I resemble that remark" or a sense at resemble for "(humorous) resent". Chuck Entz (talk) 04:37, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there anything prohibiting an etymology along the lines of: "Humorous misspelling of girl influenced by the spelling of grill"? Mocha2007 (talk) 17:04, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Are the "provoke", "terrify", "shiver" and "snarl" senses obsolete? Century marks the first as obsolete even in its (1910s) day, so I've added a tag, but I suspect the others may also be no longer used. Other dictionaries I checked don't even have them. - -sche (discuss) 17:17, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Seen today: "here's what all you can do with (such-and-such a tool)", i.e. the totality of what can be done with it. Seems to be US usage; reminds me of y'all. Should we cover this at all somehow, or even at what all? Equinox 18:21, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Not actually an invitation to 'Dutch hard'. The word 'hard' seems to resist the shift /Vrd/ > /Vrd/ that exists in these languages, cf. Dutch aard, baard etc. Does anyone have any idea why that is? Korn [kn] (talk) 20:50, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello, is legal representant considered as a set phrase in English? French Wiktionary has an entry legal representant, but I suspect it is only to translate the French phrase reprsentant lgal (used in law). Automatik (talk) 10:44, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

This verb izan can be used as an intransitive copula ("be"), as transitive verb meaning "have", as an auxiliary for intransitive verbs (with finite forms the same as the copula), and as an auxiliary for transitive verbs. It's also used as an auxiliary for intransitive verbs with a dative argument, with a whole different set of finite forms. The dative argument is usually translated by a possessive in English. (These are called nor-nori verbs in Basque.) It's used as an auxiliary with transitive verbs with dative arguments (nor-nork-nori verbs) as well, with yet another set of finite forms. The nori (dative) argument of these verbs sometimes corresponds to an indirect object in English, in other cases to a possessive.

Linguists usually give a separate etymology for the transitive forms even the citation form and participles are the same in standard Basque. Some regional dialects have separate participles for the transitive forms.

The verb has about 1500 inflected forms (not counting hika and subordinate forms) and multiple meanings and usages, so the entry needs to be broken down into subsections somehow to make it easier to follow. I guess, following standard Wiktionary formatting, I can use the etymology to split the entry into two parts. In outline, the result will look like this:

izan (intransitive)

(Conjugation table for nor verbs)

(Conjugation table for nor-nori verbs)

From an unattested earlier form *edun, reconstructed on the basis of the finite forms and the dialectal participle eduki.

izan (transitive)

(Conjugation table for nor-nork verbs)

(Conjugation table for nor-nork-nori verbs)

I'd like to split the entry up into four parts, though, with separate sections for the transitive and intransitive forms with nori (datve) agreement, so that the conjugation tables will show up under the relevant definition.

I've only been active on Wiktionary for about two weeks, so I wanted to run this by people here and get some feedback before jumping in and doing a major reorganization of an entry. If anybody has some good ideas about handling the subsections for nori agreement forms, I'd appreciate it. Namnagar (talk) 13:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

There is currently a verb sense referring to dancing to bebop jazz, but it is commonly used to refer to a type of walking, in an easygoing or maybe even jaunty manner. Would this merit another sense or could it fall under the existing one? I have some cites if that helps:

-Ultimateria (talk) 16:58, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

At you, we have a Determiner section to cover "have you gentlemen come to see the lady?" and "you idiot!" Other dictionaries I checked don't have such a section (though one has a noun section for things like "another you" and "that outfit is so you", which seems equally hard to justify). But are these really determiners, or just uses of the pronoun? Because other pronouns can be used this way, too, e.g. e.g. "y'all fools" and "sing y'all folks a song" are both attested, as is "we Canadians" (which I notice we also have a determiner section for), and not just in English: "wir Deutschen sind eine Nation von Kaffeetrinkern" and "ihr Deutschen seid" and "Du Idiot!", "nous ne consentirons jamais, nous Franaises, nous transformer en mres gigognes" and "Parisiens, et vous Franais de tous rangs et de toutes les classes", etc. - -sche (discuss) 17:18, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Etymology-wise, why is it that you take a shit when you leave one behind, but when you give a shit (which no one but plants might actually want), it's a good thing?

How did these uses develop?

Similar for take a piss (i.e., "why take?", although I don't think there's an analogous give a piss expression...).

Curious,

EirkrtlendiTalavimig 18:32, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Thus you couldn't say (excuse the graphics) "took a piece of shit" or "took a bucketload of shit" to mean defecating as it would force the mass noun interpretation.

I would also consider "someone left a shit in my toilet" borderline ungrammatical, although googling it shows that some people do use it like that, although maybe they aren't native speakers (I'm not a native speaker either) or maybe they are just joking. Crom daba (talk) 15:03, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I can't think of the English term for this - personal possessions buried with the deceased owner, as in gravgods in Det Norske Akademis ordbok (NAOB). and gravgods in Den Danske Ordbog, literally "grave goods". DonnanZ (talk) 20:09, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

The etymology for "nonce" (cryptographical sense) claims its etymology is a contraction of "number used once". The cited definition for the edit that originally added the etymology is from Ross Anderson, Security Engineering. Luckily, the full text of the book is freely available online. The relevant quote from chapter 3, page 66, is:

"The in-car token sends its name T followed by the encrypted value of T concatenated with N, where N stands for number used once, or nonce."

I don't believe this qualifies as an etymology, however, it is quite widely believed. The author is giving two definitions of N, not defining the word nonce. "number used once" is simply a convenient way for programmers to remember what a nonce is used for, and is inaccurate in that it's not actually a number. I think it is only worth mentioning in order to debunk it. I would like to see this entry merged back into nonce#Etymology 1, with a note about the dubious folk etymology.Danielklein (talk) 04:49, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Any other examples? DTLHS (talk) 05:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Would a linguist kindly confirm the pronunciation of mirative? Is it /metv/, /mtv/, or both? SGconlaw (talk) 17:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Is this evidence for the preserving of nasal vowels in Proto-Norse?Wikipedia's article on Proto-Norse mentions uncertainty of nasal vowels in PN.

NISOP? --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 14:49, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Hey all. I want to put salsa sauce in a category like Category:English reduplications. Are there any more expressions like this - made up of an English word and its translation in another language? Things like madera wood, poissonfish, tympano drum would work. Also, PIN number and other RAS syndrome stuff should probably be categorized somewhere. --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 15:21, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Australian slang, apparently along the lines of "be screwed", "be FUBAR". Anyone familiar with it? It's in a couple dictionaries, some of which even have citations (from local Australian papers, etc), but I can't find any citations on Google Books or Issuu. - -sche (discuss) 02:53, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi. I believe this wiktionary entry should be verified again. The English language generally doesn't allow words with 3 letters the same, concurrently; they are usually hyphenated, and Merriam-Webster hyphenates Wall-less (here. Could we get this checked please? See other examples such as cross-section, bell-like and so on. DaneGeld (talk) 21:30, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

In Norwegian Bokml, there is no entry for drsl/slen, which seems to be a door lock/type of a door lock. So far I can't even say I know the basics of NB so adding a whole new page myself is out of the question, as it'd end up being sub-par at best.

Would someone with more knowledge than me be so kind and add it? C0rn3j (talk) 23:02, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/drogene

I think I'll run into quite a few in the next few days, is it okay to keep posting like I've been doing? Or perhaps keep posting under a single thread instead of creating a new one like this?

By the way, thanks DonnanZ! C0rn3j (talk) 22:10, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

So, WF is using signposts in cartoons as quotes now. It's probably OK, as all Simpsons episodes are 100% archived. The question is, how's the formatting? --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 09:59, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Should we shunt off translations for pharmacological drugs to medicine? DonnanZ (talk) 12:38, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

In mute and liquid verbs, the third person plural of the perfect and pluperfect passive is formed by means of the perfect passive participle and (), , from . [4] The monolectic forms , , , are very rare and the forms (), () etc. should also be included in the respective templates. --176.92.179.137 17:59, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi friends.

Is there any reason why this article doesn't exist here on en:? I just created fr:pay tribute, and was wondering if I was making a mistake, due to my limited understanding of English language.

Waiting for your lights, --ArsniureDeGallium (talk) 18:51, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

The English definition of this word says it's slang, used as an intensifier, but I have never seen "hecken" used anywhere. Shouldn't the correct form be heckin', a shortened term of hecking in a similar pattern to freaking/freakin'? Tymewalk (talk) 22:40, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

This is the first time I have seen a dictionary define a word by noting that it is a proper noun, and giving some usage notes (italicized in brackets), without telling you what it is the name of --- the most important function of a dictionary was omitted. Unforgivable!-- Solo Owl 11:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm just wondering, since it seems you can replace "it" with a bunch of things, like "take your stress out on your friends", "take their marital problems out on the kids". Should a separate entry be made at take out on? Mofvanes (talk) 22:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Here's a list(not complete) of words that are defined in Bokml but not Nynorskhttps://haste.rys.pw/mukehukoze

lots of those seem valid but there are also some that are not (hellig for example, it seems to exist in Nynorsk too as a noun).

Am not sure if you guys have such a list (you probably do), but on the off-chance there's none and someone wants to spend time going through it, hope I helped.

C0rn3j (talk)

I think the translation table should be split; a dfaite in French is always an instance of being defeated, not of defeating someone. Per utramque cavernam 10:47, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Objective pronouns work also as emphatic by nature not "understanding"

"if the me is understood as an emphatic form". (from the entry for 'i') but... it is. should say, "but that prescription is only sociolinguistically meaningful." Yoandri Dominguez Garcia (talk) 15:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Why is described as a phono-semantic compound of and , instead of just a semantic compound? being rain or cloud, and being lighting. The resulting pronunciation could have been inherited from , which was 's original character. Perhaps, at some point, was re purposed (as we can see due to the plethora of uses and meanings this character was given), and a new semantic compound character was created referring to the original word, the same as, for example, and . QAureal (talk) 06:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Just came across the phrase "that day month" in Charles Dickens' excellent short story Captain Murderer (see the citation at paste); you can also find "that day year". What is the syntactical explanation for these curious phrases? Are there others? ("That month year" doesn't seem to be used this way, nor "that hour day", etc.) Is it something we can/should document? Equinox 04:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Would someone be willing to clean this up? All these definitions look very redundant. @-sche? Per utramque cavernam 14:01, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

It seems to be a euphemism for a military force, as in Israel, so it may be entry-worthy. DonnanZ (talk) 17:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

The conventional etymology of the name of Istanbul is as a bastardization of the Greek phrase . In a process known as iotacism, the pronunciation of the letter had already been raised and changed to /i/ by the time Turks presented themselves adjacent to the Byzantine Empire. The sound shift /i/ > /a/ is hard to explain. It is even harder to explain in the Turkish name for the island of Kos, stanky, which has a similar etymology, because there it also goes, on either side, against Turkish vowel harmony.

Several sources explain the etymology as stemming from the dialectal variant ; for example, here in a commentary in a 2015 edition of Pliny's Natural History, or, in a Greek-language source, in a contribution by Misal D. Engonopoulos an expert on the many names of Byzantion/Constantinople/Istanbul to the 2000 book : 60 (ISBN 9607771354, page 60, unfortunately no Google preview).

Should we mention this as an alternative etymology, or perhaps even replace the current one? --Lambiam 12:14, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Would the sense "at play" as in "there may be other factors at play" be considered SoP here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:50, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello. There are many vulgar terms of abuse that end with fucker e.g. camelfucker, catfucker, dogfucker, donkeyfucker, duckfucker, goatfucker, horsefucker, mousefucker, pigfucker, ratfucker but I haven't found any category or list that link them to each other (e.g. fucker#Derived terms or Thesaurus:git, where I guess they could be added). Moreover, should animal-related terms be grouped in any list? For example, a category, a thesaurus, etc.? Automatik (talk) 13:04, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

I noticed that freeer is in the dictionary as a common misspelling, and created freeest as a natural companion (and one that is also attested). I am wondering, however, are these really misspellings, and not valid alternative spellings, or perhaps previously valid spellings? They seem to have been used by literate people in the past. bd2412 T 21:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Both are given as nouns. It doesn't feel right to me. Then "ten percent" sounds like Det+N (like "ten apples"), whereas really it's "ten per [for each] cent [hundred]", more like "ten out of twenty" or "two outside the door". Should we change the PoS; if so, to what? Equinox 01:11, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Our entry for Chinese (zh) says that it can be used as an alternative form of (zh). Is the reverse true as well? I ask because I encountered the following sentence in Sanmao's book (Stories of the Sahara): "" I can't make sense of it with either of the senses listed at , but it makes sense if it means "to tie; to fasten; to bundle" (sense 3 at ). Is this just a typo, or can be used as an alternative form of ? Granger(talk contribs) 01:36, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Worthy of an entry? Per utramque cavernam 17:49, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eder#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l

eder (Bokml)

I think this "(Bokml)" is a leftover from when Nynorsk and Bokml wasn't separated? It seems redundant but am unsure, so am asking here instead of deleting it outright.

C0rn3j (talk) 20:53, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Is this really a conjunction? Per utramque cavernam 13:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello, the entry resting place was deleted 10 years ago and not recreated since then, however it seems that it is the most common way to spell the wordwithout hyphen? Automatik (talk) 00:56, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Requesting citations from the 1990s as the definition claims. DTLHS (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

I do agree that it seems odd how difficult it is to find quotations before the 2000s. SGconlaw (talk) 02:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Can this be considered a set phrase? The reason I ask is that Norwegian Bokml matvane and Swedish matvana are literally "food habit", German Ernhrungsgewohnheit "nutrition habit", Dutch eetgewoonte follows the English pattern. DonnanZ (talk) 14:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Hello,Does anyone know whether there's an etymological connection between the two words ethics and aesthetics? My search came up with two similar (but not identical) sources (ethikos for ethics and aisthetikos for aesthetic), but I'm wary of making the connection without knowing Greek or having any linguistic background. Any thoughts would be most welcome!:)Thanks!Gal.

Should the senses be split by etymology? Sense 2 is "a hawk of chickens, a chicken hawker", while sense 3 is "a hawk that is chicken". Per utramque cavernam 08:31, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

"the train backed into the station; the horse refuses to back". These seem like very different uses of the word. DTLHS (talk) 21:53, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Entry draws a distinction between a humorous Coneheads sense and an &lit (I have just made a couple of changes to it, but there were always two senses): I don't see that the distinction is justified. Equinox 00:02, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

I fixed about 30 entries myself where I knew how exactly to edit them (vast majority were simple typos and a few used; instead of , for a separator), although I'm not exactly sure with the following entries.

Some have different formatting where the inflections are supposed to be - (Note: when I use "every other entry", I mean about 15000 words I am currently processing)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/helvete#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l "genitive helvetes" I'd expect this to be in brackets as every other entry seems to be

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mang_en - Seems to have completely different entry-style as compared to everything else, for example fly - https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fly#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/s%C3%B8ster#Norwegian_Bokm%C3%A5l - "colloquial ss" is outside the brackets

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Wiktionary:Tea room - Wiktionary